Welcome All Falco Lovers <33333

The Fox Matchup
The Matchup and History: Falco vs. Fox is a fairly even matchup. Back in the day, Falco was thought of as a Fox counter due to his ridiculous auto combos on fast fallers and laser control, but over the past couple years, the general opinion of the matchup has been swinging back towards Fox. As Foxes learned to consistently running powershield -> grab, Thunders Combo, and punish Falco's tech and off ledge options, Falco started looking more and more helpless to Fox's speed. There was even a period where tristate players were suggesting that Fox counters Falco due to JMan tearing through Falco after Falco and even taking a convincing set off of Mango's Falco at Mass Madness. Thankfully, the Falco metagame has learned to cope with this modern style of Fox vs. Falco, and by being mindful of laser placement and spacing approaches, Falco seems to have gotten the edge in this matchup again and it's showing in the results.
Bottom Line: Slight Advantage for Falco. The matchup is close to even, but even the best Fox vs. Falco players don't wanna see a good Falco these days.



The Neutral Position: This is easily the most difficult aspect of this matchup. Fox is quicker than or as quick as Falco in every single way. He runs much faster, wavedashes and wavelands much faster, gets off the ground from his jump faster, accelerates midair faster and has a significantly faster and longer dash dance. Most of their attacks have the same or exceptionally similar frame data. While Falco can still end up ahead in a neutral position by strategic use of crouch canceling and out-ranging Fox, the true saving grace for Falco is that he has a gun. By placing lasers well, you can keep Fox on the ground, which is very important because of his jump speed. Without lasers, Fox has free reign to get airborne first, which is hugely advantageous since Fox and Falco have identical aerial frame data and very similar hitboxes on aerials. So the idea here is to use your lasers to force Fox onto platforms or keep him on the ground long enough to get into the air first so that you can either score a first hit or a shield pressure opportunity. Just be sure that your laser placement and timing does not leave you open for running powershield -> grab/usmash as most good players nowadays are very very good at this. If the Fox has enough time to build up running speed towards you, you should fake the laser and just space a nair in his face, try to grab or close and get into a shine fight.

When Fox is above you on platforms, stay patient and try to get something out of your defensive options such as dash dancing, crouch canceling, shielding high followed by shine OoS, and challenging with utilt. Don't feel pressured to approach and for the love of god don't try to pop up high and laser him when he's getting close to you as lasers are very vulnerable. If you see a nice opening, feel free to harass with shffl uair or outright approach with shine -> platform waveland, but don't force it. Fox is usually trying to bait you onto the platform, so only take a swing at him when you're sure it's going to hit, otherwise, make him come to you.

Getting above Fox is great when he's in the air or his shield, but terrible when he's grounded. If you can bait a jump from Fox with a short hop, feel free to abuse SH -> DJ dair, but if he stays grounded and mobile, don't try to fight into his DD options with dair, as he is fast enough to nearly always avoid dair and punish super hard with usmash or grab.

If Fox is for some reason full hop nair shining, you just need to ground him with lasers. Don't bother contesting it, you can win or trade with fair/bair/usmash/utilt, but they're all difficult to space right and there's no need when you can just use your lasers to solve the problem and allow you to get airborne first. If he's overly ballsy with it and hits your shield, remind him why that's a terrible idea by shining OoS.




This matchup is always evolving. These characters are dynamic by nature since they're so popular and can use their great attack/pressure/keep away abilities in unique and powerful ways. I'll try to keep it simple since most people only stick to a few strategies on each end anyway lol.

Fox's Goal: Setting up situations where Falco gives up control and he gets hit, or exposing a hole in Falco's control game and hits him. The first way to play is generally defensive, and the second is generally offensive(though offense is somewhat difficult vs Falco). Knocking Falco down or grabbing him are the most ideal situations for Fox outside of having Falco offstage.

Falco's Goal: Limit Fox's movement with lasers/the threat of lasers and either punish on his awkwardness/disorientation in a situation Fox is placed into. Having Fox in shield or being directly under Fox as he is airborne from a jump are some of the best places to be against Fox as Falco.

Both: Kill the other off of one opening.



So, I think I'll talk about how to deal with everything Fox can do(especially in response to lasers). I'll see if I can keep this concise and effective.



What Fox can do vs lasers:


Platforms: If Fox is hardcore camping platforms, then a few good shots should get the game moving. The problem with shooting Fox while he's platform camping is Falco must jump to get these lasers out, and in that time Fox can get below Falco. Since Fox's Uptilt and Upair out range Falco's Dair(typically) when done correctly, this means that Falco does not get a free safety net when the situation gets reversed in this manner. Falco also loses control vs Fox when he is high up because his SHL is the main component of his limiting game. Therefore, it is usually better to hit Fox while Fox is already high in the air/on the platform directly, or when Fox returns to the ground.


But, most Foxes don't play THAT gay vs Falco lol. They just want you to come close so they can get back down. Watch for the way a Fox gets off a platform(SH Nair, fall through Bair, isai drop Bair, run off Bair, it will probably involve Bair guys btw). Laser, Nair, Bair, or uptilt accordingly. Keep in mind, trading your Uptilt with Fox's like Bair or whatever isn't usually a great one, so try to keep Fox from falling directly onto you. Keeping yourself moving and possibly attacking or counterattacking is a great way to stop this issue and you can reverse the pressure of being under Fox back onto him.

Top platform Fox usually needs to be shot at lol.


WD OOS:

This can be done at several different times, including during your shield pressure, so you need to be prepared for it. WD OOS during your laser approach/scaring can cause your spacing to become screwed up. While you try to readjust, Fox can sneak underneath your advancing laser/aerial and upsmash or Nair. If he chooses he can simply watch and react to what you do as well. Retreating to a platform from a WD OOS isn't that uncommon either.

Thing is, there's only so much stage to retreat to(most Foxes won't WD towards you but if they do you could probably get an easy shine punish or something lol) and Foxes won't always retreat right away. You can kind of feel out when a Fox would retreat and chase with more lasers/dash into aerials accordingly. Either way, you gain stage control and some momentum. It's a big you gotta feel him out type of thing but you do benefit from it overall if you can work your stage control.


FH/DJ tricks:

Most commonly used on FD. This is super reading-intensive and you can either try to cover the landing lag on both jumps(attacking as they land with lasers/grabs/aerials/whatever) or attempt to intercept(with an aerial or uptilt/upsmash or CC) an aerial as you see it coming. If a spacie loses their double jump in this matchup, they should die, so keep that in mind as you watch Fox flip and twist around.



Powershielding:

This doesn't really change for Fox more than other characters except Fox is pretty fast so this is hard to fully account for all of the time. If Fox is approaching and you expect a powershield, then you could shoot a blank then attack(like turnaround uptilt) or shoot a laser at a harder to PS height(really high or really low would work, mixups are obviously best) or just throw out something like a retreating Dair/Bair/Ftilt/whatever to force Fox to change plans. The goal of the PS'ing is to get you to quit shooting lasers, but Fox doesn't necessarily know when you'll stop shooting. The absence of your lasers is a great asset just like the laser itself is. Just because powershielding makes you change your game up doesn't mean it can't be conditioned against and make both of your lives(yours and opponent's) harder.


SDI'ing/taking lasers to stuff:

Nothing complicated or Fox-specific here. Fox can upsmash/shield/run/jump/WD from laser stun and he can do a lot out of each of those options as well. This is also pretty reading-intensive in that there isn't a surefire way to beat whatever Fox does, and SDI'ing a laser could very well throw off your spacing. Taking a moment to react to your opponent typically proves useful here though, at least initially to observe their instinctive reactions to your movements anyway.


Rushdown: Usually done when Fox is close anyway to beat out your lasers/keep you scared. Retreating moves work to give you breathing room, and RSHLs can provide that moment of observation you need to get out of a tight spot. Also rushdown can be countered with your own rushdown, which is always funny.


Pressuring Fox:

Fox gets shine OOS if you're on top of him and Upsmash OOS if you're trying to space him out while pressuring him, not to mention WD OOS if he wants to keep things safe. Factor in rolls and you have to play a very observant pressure game with Falco. There's no way to beat this situation other than by reading your opponent and having a healthy mixup of # reps of delayed aerial shines, immediate retreating aerials from shines, double shines, shine grabs, lasers, and waveshines. Double shine seems worth it in this matchup more than others simply because it's easier to get a followup off if you hit the second shine on Fox since he's not floaty.


Edgeguarding:

When you send a Fox offstage, you usually want to throw lasers where he could jump/buffer a jump out and then react to when he does. If Fox starts to up-B, then take advantage of the free damage you can deal with lasers. Typically, you want to expect the forward B and then react to the up-B. Since up-B is slow to start, it makes reacting to it with lasers very easy.

I like to punish Fox's forward B with a runoff double jump Dair, but Bairs, uptilt to Bairs, Dsmashes, and Ftilts are all great ways of dealing with it(depending on Fox's height and percent, the correct move may be different for some situations, so be flexible).

If you laser Fox and he goes low, then you should either WD offstage to double jump Bair(if Fox is close enough and you will survive), or grab the edge. Grabbing the edge right before Fox up-Bs allows you to cover his options well. If he rides the edge of the stage you can drop down before he expects to tech and shine him. This pops him up so you can knock him off with a Bair/Dair again, or shine spikes him haha(get ***** Fox when this works btw). Also there is the obvious ledge hope Bair/Dair that are typically teched but are effective when the timing is mixed up.

If Fox goes out, then you may just have to roll up or Bair/Dair him. Pretty easy stuff there.

If you do choose to stay onstage, then you should try to Dair early and let the weaker part of the Dair hit Fox just as he reaches the edge. It screws with Fox's tech timing horribly. The only drawback is that Fox can tech onto the stage/live if you delay the Dair too long.

*2011 stuff: grabbing the edge and shining Fox is funny and can add another layer of depth to edgeguarding lower firefoxes.







Shield Pressuring: Fox is a real pain in the *** to shield pressure, so if run into a fast Fox OoS, don't mess around with his shield unless you're confident in your shield pressure techniques. Fox's viable options OoS are:
1. usmash OoS (frame 8)
2. shine OoS (frame 4)
3. shield grab (frame 7)
4. nair OoS (frame 7)
5. spot dodge (frame 2)
6. roll (frame 4)
What this all boils down to is that when you are super close to him, you should double shine to protect against shine OoS while staying flexible against rolling and spot dodging. When you're slightly further away, you should shine grab to protect against usmash OoS and shield grabbing, but beware spot dodge -> grab from Fox as this is the counter to shine grabbing (spot dodge ends in 22 frames vs. your grab which ends in 30 frames, which gives him a 2 frame buffer to grab vs. you spot dodging). Spot dodge is weak vs. standard shine -> aerial pressure as both nair and dair last long enough that Fox cannot spot dodge the entire aerial, so if he's adapting to your shine grab, mix standard pillar back in at this spacing. At further spacing, fadeback nair is pretty much optimal to stay out of his grab/usmash range.


What I always see Mango do for shield pressure is super delayed Nair/Bair shines. If you get away with this, then just look for the roll after a few repetitions of aerial to shine. Don't be afraid of Fox in his shield but respect his options. Also, Foxes these days tend to be jumpy OOS, so if you laser in close you can sometimes get a Nair off on a Fox that wants to jump OOS and start a combo from there.

Comboing: Fox is Falco's #1 combo target in the game. If you have trouble comboing Fox with Falco, you likely need to just crank out some hours practicing linking waveshines -> aerials vs. a level 1 computer. Fox is a fast faller and cannot tech dair until ~50%, so when you land a low % shine, the bread and butter follow up of wave dash out of shine -> shffl dair -> shine, rinse, repeat until ~50% is not a bad option. On FD, you can actually just wave shine and follow up with shines if he keeps DIing away, which will let you push him closer to the edge without building % too quickly so that you still have guaranteed follow ups like dair and fsmash to set up a cheap edgeguard opportunity. On platform stages, react to no DI on low % shines with aerial shine -> platform wave land instead of letting him tech. This sets up nicely for utilt/usmash/fsmash or generic dair/shine follow ups depending on where he goes. You can also link shine -> nair -> fsmash/dsmash if you want to try to catch them off guard and put them off stage. Another common thing to do is follow up your last dair before <FILL IN % HERE> with utlit -> fsmash.

As Fox gets higher in %, try to link your shines into shine-> bair or shine-> platform waveland. Getting above him and dairing after ~50% doesn't accomplish much as tech chases options are basically limited to guessing 1 option and hoping for the best in these scenarios, but feel free to do so on platforms and near ledges as you can typically turn it into a 50/50 guess on fsmash or dair -> dair spike/fsmash. You can also start your dair very early and fast fall through him with the weak hitbox to setup a legit combo into dsmash or screw up his tech timing. Another common follow up I use is to double jump above a Fox in hitstun and fast fall a uair through him to pop him up and follow that up. utilt and usmash combo into each other and shffled aerials very well at these mid %s as well.

At death %s, keep it short and sweet, always look for dair -> dair spike and dair -> smash opportunities and link your shines into dair spikes, shine -> bairs, or just regular bairs to set up edgeguards.


Dair to Dsmash on the missed tech is super good at mid-high percents. Mogwai got a lot of the comboing stuff down haha.

Edgeguarding: I've found that lasers are hugely useful in edgeguarding Fox. When I get him off at low-mid %, my first instincts are to fast fall off stage into a DJ nair/dair or DJ double laser with a fast fall after the first laser to cover more options with lasers. DJ nairing catches most forward B attempts which forces his up B which allows you to take the edge and either ledgehop dair or ledgehop bair. DJ dairing is less likely to hit than the nair, but it does just kill them a lot of the time. The two lasers are particularly nice because they catch him if he tries to fake you out with an early and high up B, but you have to be ready to catch an instant forward B afterwards with dsmash or angled filt. If he doesn't instant forward B after the lasers, he is below stage and you respond by simply taking the ledge. When he is knocked further away, pester him with lasers to force his recovery low and then take the ledge and utilize ledgehop bair for the kill.

Getting Comboed and DIing: Fox vs. Falco comboing is pretty linear upwards juggling. In other words, he just tries to hit you up in the air and then while you're falling in hitstun, he wants to hit you back up there. Fox's standard starters are usmash and grab. He can also open things up with the Thunder's Combo (shine -> wavedash -> jab reset which leads into shffl uair usually, but can also lead into charged usmash or grab), but this can be foiled by smash DIing the jab upwards so that you get slightly airborne from the jab rather than being reset. On FD and in other situations when there is no platform above you, you can DI his uthrow up and shine/double jump before he can regrab in the low 30%s, but doing this allows him to just utilt -> regrab or usmash -> w/e. In these situations, just pick a direction and DI that way until the hurting stops unless they are mindlessly CGing you and you think you'll be able to get away with DI up -> shine. Try not to lose your jump while getting comboed, as Fox will see this and then just do something obnoxious like nair -> ftilt/dsmash to push you off stage. Also just in general watch out for shine/doubleshine combo finishers near the edge of the stage, as that **** will very frequently lead into an impossibly easy edgeguard (for instance, if JMan grabs you near the ledge DI into the stage for the love of god unless you really don't need or want that stock).

Near platforms, Fox's combo game turns into a guessing game, so just mix it up and make him work for it. When he uthrow/usmash/utilts you onto a platform, just try to be unpredictable with your tech choices. If you always tech, Fox can pretty much tech chase with grab on reaction. If you mix in no tech, you can keep him guessing and just try to react to what he does, but again, if you get predictable he'll just murder you with uair or dair reset for not teching.

Recovering: In short recovery situations I typically jump backwards to try to avoid Fox just dropping down and shining me or sitting on the edge and dsmash/low ftilting me. I'll then react to him doing an attack by forward Bing through him or I'll start an up B slightly above ledge level if he does nothing so that you can try to react and either sweet spot the ledge or go on stage depending on Fox's movement. If you do this jump backwards recovery, watch out for Fox doing this big stupid loopy jump thing with a nair or nothing and looking for a shine. When he does this, you need to forward B to the ledge ASAP. If you delay at all or go high and try to recover onto the stage, he just gets a shine autokill. Alternately, you can drop low and just try to double jump sweet spot, but this is susceptible to cheesy drop down shines and edgehog opportunities. In long recovery situations, you really just have to forward B if he tries to come out after you and up B to the ledge if he edgehogs you and you have an option to go on stage (most foxes pop up with a bair to cover you going on stage). These long recovery situations are fairly hopeless against a good edgeguarding Fox though so focus on not getting gimped.

Stages:
FD: This is a controversial stage in the matchup. In my counterpicking guide, I marked this as my most popular ban vs. Fox, but I've been coming around on that opinion over the past few months. The downside is that Fox's combos on Falco are never guessing games on this stage, as their are no platforms to hinder his combo game. This means that Fox's punishes are more consistently brutal here than on other neutrals. And in the meantime, it's harder to extend your combos to death without platforms to link mid % shine -> platform wavelands -> moveset combos. Your combos are still really good though, so it's a minor hindrance. The plus side is that your laser control is much more convincing here. If you're having trouble keeping the Fox off of you in the neutral position, this stage is a great way to simplify that aspect of the matchup. I've begun taking Foxes with particularly sophisticated platform movement to this stage with good success, but if I'm not having trouble controlling the stage on a platform stage, I don't like giving Fox the benefit of guaranteed CG -> uair/utilt/usmash punishes.

*This stage seems better and better for fox the more I think about it. Fox gets more guaranteed damage from CGs than you do for a combo on average(much less margin to mess up as well for combos). Losing platforms kinda sucks for Fox, but he has enough ways to deal with lasers that make it okay for him. That said, punishment is bigger on both ends of the matchup here, and if you can get your laser control down well there would be a lot of momentum/combo-heavy matches played here. It's typically why players like Mango call this stage "random" in terms of who wins there. Punishments are just silly here and sometimes too simple. Go here if you have success getting the first hit more often than your opponent/cant handle the platform camping at all.

BF: Personally, I really like this stage in this matchup. It's not hugely imbalanced or anything, but the ledges limit Fox's options when you make him recover from below, which Falco is good at with lasers, and it makes getting those mid-high % kills much easier. Of course the same is true from the other side of the matchup, but I think Falco's ability to recover from below ledge height is much less relevant than Fox's in this matchup. It's not too cramped to get a decent bit of laser control in the neutral position, but is obviously more difficult than on a larger stage like FD/PS/DL. Platforms are at very nice height and spacing for shine comboing. All in all, a pretty good stage vs. Fox.

*I actually feel pretty good on BF vs Fox, but I'm not sure if I'd recommend it to everyone. I feel like I do well here because Fox can't really run away that much, and something about the platform heights are conducive to comboing. It's harder for Fox to recover as well with no wall to ride up and tech on the sides, and shine up-B kills are actually somewhat possible since the ceiling is kinda low. This can all backfire since the stage isn't too big and Fox can catch you, kill you off the top sooner, and egdeguard/combo you easier too(maybe?), so this could easily be a preference thing.

DL64: Assuming they don't ban it, this is my default pick vs. Fox players. The wide platforms are spaced nicely so that a Fox on the platform isn't necessarily that scary when you're on the ground. Their width makes his platform follow ups more difficult. The stage is huge and as such give you a lot to work with in terms of laser control. The ceiling is monstrously high, making Fox's kills off the top considerably more difficult. Definitely a good one vs. Fox.

*I hate this stage vs Fox now lol. He can run away soooooo much and it takes longer to kill him(especially with better SDI which increases the chance of escaping a combo either just by nature of SDI or with something like an edgecancel). However, if you're a big camper or need room to breathe vs a Fox that's always on top of you, then I'd suggest this stage for sure. Watch out for run off top/side platform bairs here especially.

FoD: This stage is pretty tricky in this matchup. I've found that the key is to stay low and stay away from predictable dair on platform -> fall through dair tricks unless the Fox is already in shield or cornered. Sometimes the low platforms let you ledge cancel out of a combo early, which is nice, but other times they put you into an impossible tech situation where you'll get usmashed regardless of what you do. The ledges aren't particularly good for you in the matchup as Fox has low recovery options along the wall, but in the same breath, you have techable walls all the way to the bottom of the stage in case you get shined into the wall. If you're smart about using lasers behind low platforms, you can also nicely control Fox's approach similar to how you can on FD with the added benefit of shutting down his SHFFL approaches, but besides that, it's a bit too small for nice laser control. As with in most matchups, this stage is potentially good, but also potentially pretty bad depending on how you choose to play it.

*This stage can either **** or **** you in this matchup. Combos here can be intense for you with the nice platform heights and the smaller size allowing them to end closer to the edge for explosive finishes(not to mention the smaller side blast zones make your life easier as well since you usually finish combos sideways and the large ceiling helps you survive since Fox likes to kill vertically). The lower platforms can screw with your lasers, so be very mindful of the stage before committing to any sort of movement. The good news is that if your lasers stop working well on this stage you get to end the lag on your aerials sooner. Dair to Dair on lower platforms is fun shield pressure/combo material and can be played around with a lot. Both you and Fox can reach through platfroms with your upsmashes and Dsmashes sure you have a thorough understanding of how all of your moves are affected by the stage before trying to play here.

YS: This stage is taking over as my default ban vs. Fox. He is a potential threat from any platform and there's no way to establish good laser control. On this stage, you just need to rely on your spacing to produce first hits and it's very tough when Fox has room to run around above you and get the jump on you. Couple that with stupid ledges that tilt downward and allow fox's stupid dsmash to hit stupid low and a stupid low ceiling, and you've got a bit of a nightmare for Falco. That being said, the platforms are pretty nice for comboing and the low ceiling can let you get some silly shine -> up B kills, so it's not all bad, but in the grand scheme of things, I'd much rather not have to play Fox on this stage... also it's stupid.

*Foxes really like this stage vs Falco. There's good reason for it obviously. Bair covers A LOT of the stage, and the small blastzones help Fox kill early like he enjoys. If you can keep yourself moving, this stage isn't too bad, but edgeguarding is pretty tough here for you more than Fox usually since fly guys and a big wall+randall make an already complicated procedure even more difficult. If it weren't for easy to finish combos/small blast zones helping you out as well I'd definitely say ban this stage vs Fox. As it is, it's probably not a good stage vs him, but it's doable.

PS: The Neutral transformation is pretty good for Falco. It's nice and flat and you can make it pretty difficult for Fox to make it to a relevant platform with your lasers due to how large the stage is and the fact that there's no top platform for Fox to use to move from one low platform to another. The ledges are also pretty lame like battlefield's which, as I said before, is better for Falco than Fox. The small blast zones also mean that Fox will just straight up die in some situations where he'd otherwise be able to recover. The two issues with this stage vs. Fox are the low ceiling and the transformations. While neither of these are really dealbreakers for Falco, they do make the stage worse than dreamland or battlefield for this matchup in my book. I think that the mountain and fire transformations are both beneficial to Fox, that the windmill is relatively even, and that the jungle is beneficial to Falco in the matchup (<3 the left side of the jungle transformation).

*Neutral part of this rapes. Not really big platforms to Fox to camp on, and small enough blast zones to keep your kills quick while you get a lot of room to control Fox horizontally but not so much vertically. It's a unique and effective layout if you can use it correctly imo. The transformations pretty much all suck for Falco though, especially that mountain one. This CP can vary in terms of success and may end up coming down to how patient you are or how well you can handle Fox having times where he can suddenly platform camp with a lot of stage control.

KJ64: I actually really like this stage vs. Fox. The platforms being so high makes them functionally pretty useless for Fox, as approaching from them is very predictable and punishable by reaction. What's left is an FD-like playing field that lets you shut Fox down quite a bit by using lasers. The rotating platforms in the middle give you a respite from Fox combos when he does manage to hit you and the ceiling is exceptionally high, making the usmash and uair kills **** near impossible. The ledges are beneficial to you in much the same way as BF and PS's are, but they are trickier, so make sure your Forward B shortening is on so that you can still make it to the ledge without crashing into the stage (since you can't). Also, always remember than shine stalling until the barrel comes is a viable option. All in all, it's a mildly tricky neutralish stage that you should keep in mind if you know how to play it.

*I need to play this stage vs Fox more, but from what I have played of it, it's pretty frustrating because Fox can just runaway and stuff lol.

Welp, that didn't change since the last time I wrote it lol. Falco can combo well here but Fox is great at moving here. Yup.

Brinstar: Is a pretty janky stage for both spacies. I don't really know how the matchup goes on it.

Rainbow Cruise: Rainbow cruise is generaly good for Falco, but against Fox, he has too much space to move around and you can't control him with lasers. I don't really get shook up if a Fox takes me here, but I would never dream of taking a Fox to rainbow cruise.

* I really don't like Cruise against Fox. Fox gimps mad hard and can move around so much better than Falco can. I probably don't know how to play the matchup though.

A year later: Fox definitely moves around and kills better here vs Falco lol. Ive never seen this matchup here but I can't imagine it being in Falco's favor AT ALL. It has to be at least slightly in Fox's favor here. Dude is too fast.









I couldn't tell you who wins this matchup. Still trying to decide. I still feel like Fox can run circles around Falco and beat him, but it seems somewhat easier to punish Foxs movement now. I feel inclined to say slight advantage Fox right now anyway.



From Dr Peepee's Advice thread (Falcon and Marth):


vs Falcon:


Bans/strikes:

We'll do the easy part first. KJ64 is Falcon's big **** stage in this matchup, but DL works pretty well for him also. Yeah, Falco can combo better due to the height of the platforms on that stage, but you can already combo falcon to death/offstage anyway. Falcon survives well here due to a high ceiling and high platforms on both sides. Falco dies earlier because Falcon just has an easier time comboing here and Falco also has no easy way to sweetspot the edge(no side to ride up for firebird, and it's nearly impossible for side-B). DL lets Falcon run around on platforms and avoid lasers pretty well, and the stage is big enough to the point that Falcon's speed on those platforms actually allows him to surprise Falco because he has so much platform space to trip Falco up on.

CPs:

You're probably going to want to take Falcon to FD. You can 0-death him here like it's nothing. If Falcon is more concerned about getting 0-deathed than dealing with the stage, then he'll get rid of FD. In this case, FoD is your best bet because you get platform combos galore and Falcon has a hard time moving around and getting his stuff started. There are times when FoD's platforms mess with your own laser game though, and the combination of that with the small size of the stage may leave you feeling a little cramped. This isn't a huge problem really because Falco has other answers to Falcon's approaches, so don't be afraid to start moving around without shooting and getting creative if you know your gun won't work.

Really though, it's up to the Falco. If you like to get in close on Falcon and outprioritize his aerials, then you'll want to take him to BF, FoD, or YS. If you like controlling Falcon's approaches and being safer in your own approach(preferred), then you'll want FD or PS. PS is a great CP because you have enough room to laser and control Falcon without giving him lots of outside space to recover. The transformations are a good aid to Falco's combos as well.



So I figured the first thing I should do when I start to talk about actually fighting Falcon is the importance of lasers and knowing when to approach. That gun rapes Falcon. I mean, it messes him up badly. Falcon loses his awesome dash dance game and has to move around and aerial based on the way you shoot. Falco's lasers, like any other projectile, are meant to control the way Falcon moves and it allows you to force him into an unfavorable position that you can take advantage of. For example, let's say I'm fighting against a Falcon on FD. Falcon has no platforms he can retreat to when I laser, so he has to be totally focused on what I'm doing. This knowledge allows me to shoot more freely to apply pressure. What can Falcon do on FD to avoid my lasers though? Turns out, he has a few ways of dealing with them, but they can be countered fairly easily.

1. Nair as you laser.

Probably the most prominent Falcon technique to dealing with lasers. Falco has some down time when he pulls out his gun and he's also vulnerable after he fires until he reaches the ground. Falcon's have a quick reaction time typically. Waiting until Falco SHs isn't hard to react to. All they have to do is SH Nair(no FF) and the Nair will reach Falco just after his laser comes out. A simple counter to this is to aim your lasers higher. Hitting Falcon right between the legs is funny anyway. CC'ing the Nair that is probably going past you to a punishment of your choice(JC grab, Utilt possibly, Dsmash) is another good option.
As this is the main time you have to worry about Nair, I might as well say you can also Utilt to beat Falcon's Nair. Bair also works, and sometimes you can even Nair through it(not totally reliable but it looks pretty cool).

2. Powershield

The main thing with Falcon's powershielding is, it's only a little bit of damage. Powershielding(now PS'ing) only deals Falco a little bit of damage(assuming you don't just shield the laser anyway....), and it sometimes makes Falcos feel like they need to approach. That's what Falcon wants. Don't rush in after Falcon does something correctly like that because then he'll feel more confident and be more likely to punish Falco. The best thing to do after Falcon PS's something is.....keep shooting.

3. Raptor boost under/through a laser.

Yeah, Falcon can do something weird with his side B that lets him go past lasers. It's dumb, but fairly easy to punish. Just look for the startup animation and see if you can shield+JC Dair or just Dair him. Nair is fine too if you just wanna hit him, but Dair leads to so much. You can even turnaround Uptilt to look mad cute if you're quick.

4. Platforms

Falcon is like a worse version of Fox on platforms. He can fall off of/through them with Bairs or knees, or he could jump out at you with knees or stomps. Laser him from across the stage to get him off of them to approach you on the ground, or work on Bairs/Uairs underneath the platform Falcon is on to harass him. Watch out for stomps through the platforms though.




Okay, so now you know to laser Falcon and (sort of) how to deal with his answers to them. I'll go into what you want to do when you finally approach now.

Falcon will probably be shielding when you get in close. His options are very limited here. He can retreating Nair OOS if he's facing forward, Bair OOS if he's facing away from you, roll under pressure, or stomp OOS if you're pressuring his shield. I like approaching a shielding Falcon with Nair because it will get to him before his Bair or Nair come out well, and it keeps him from jumping away(if you're quick enough).

Once you're on top of Falcon, you have him where you want him. Don't let him go. Staple aerial+shine shield pressure eats at Falcon's shield and forces him to roll typically. Watch for when Falcon rolls and learn to react or predict to it. If you do more than one waveshine on Falcon's shield he an grab you, but he can also stomp OOS. If that happens, you will take hard damage or lose a stock vs a high level Falcon. If you can get behind a Falcon and pressure him, you will always get a roll. Shiz has said this before and I have tested it and it's best to shield pressure from the rear if possible. I don't know how wise it is to always try to get behind Falcon, but if you do it some then you can expect a roll away and punish it hard. Mixing in laser+shine is **** for shield pressure too.

Then you have your grabs. Laser to grab. Laser to JC grab from a farther distance. Shine JC grab is an awesome mixup. The way you do these is all up to you, but it's best to mix them up or you'll get aerial'd OOS for being predictable.
Off of grabs, you can't do much to Falcon. Uthrow puts Falcon in a bad position to get Bair'd/Nair'd, Fthrow sets up a guessing situation that tends to make Falcons roll(sometimes they sit in their shield and you can double Fthrow them though.....Chops does this stuff a lot). Bthrow works well on Falcon because if he DIs in you can get an Ftilt or jab off and continue pressuring Falcon. He could also DJ/land on a platform. In this case you already know how to fight him here, but you have the mental upper hand/momentum at this point so play around with your new openings when Falcon is under pressure on a platforn vs when he isn't.
Of course, the throw that puts Falcon offstage is preferable to the one that could lead to a combo on him.

A little bit on Uthrow: I don’t think you can directly follow up on Uthrow vs Falcon, but Falcon typically DJs(double jumps) away after an Uthrow, so you’re left with possibilities. Falco’s Bair outspaces Falcon’s knee and Nair from below, so if Falcon DIs behind Falco then that’s the best option. If Falcon DIs in front of you, then you should go for a Nair or FAIR(yes, Fair. It comes out quickly and hits heavies like Falcon several times for massive damage and stuff). Falcon’s stomp is easy to punish either in startup or cooldown, and even if you trade you can’t die from it, so it’s worth going for. This is a part of following up on Falcon I’ll come back to soon.

Alright, and now, the favorite part for you people with happy feet: COMBO’ING

Dair shine is your best way to combo. Seriously. At 0%, if you get a shine, you should Dair shine afterward. On FD, Dair shine until ~43-45% is good, and the shine that connects after that can lead into Nairs into Fsmash or a Dair spike( see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj8ro3oLLtk starting around 1:03).
With platforms, I like to spike Falcon(anyone really) into them so I can get a tech chase going by the time I land there. Sometimes you can’t hit Falcon offstage so it’s necessary to do this so that you can build up damage/land a strong hit on Falcon. Depending on %/stage/where you are in your jump, you can follow up with an Fsmash no matter what your opponent does, which is typically the best unless they don’t tech, in which case a Dsmash is the most reliable and sometimes the best punishment. Dsmash sends characters low, which is good vs spacies/Falcon because they can’t recover. It forces Marth lower so he has less time to abuse his slow falling speed, etc. I’ll go over this part again if/when I talk about other characters.
Anyway, I’ll sometimes go for an uptilt since it comes out quickly and reaches across most of the platform, as well as leads to another strong hit(Fsmash/Bair depending on the opponent’s character).

Let’s say you’re below the platform when Falcon techs onto it. Stand directly under the center of it(if you get there quickly enough). If Falcon/anyone techs in place or rolls toward the edge facing the blast zones, then you can just FH Bair him. If he misses the tech you can punish him too, my bad. If he goes toward the middle of the stage then you can Nair him if you think it will send him offstage or try to DJ Dair him and punish based on DI if you react quickly enough. A shine WL onto the platform is also an acceptable option at lower percents. Be wary of shining an opponent who missed a tech though, because they sometimes get into that really floaty state where you can’t combo them. It’s all hit-or-miss there in my experience. There’s probably a certain timing for when to shine them but I couldn’t tell you what it is.

Oh, I almost forgot about recovery haha.


Falcon’s will jump offstage if they think you will jump backwards and phantasm so they try to knee you out of it. Delaying your jump/holding your shine(very good option) is crucial at these times. If you’re below the stage, then Falcon will probably uptilt you. Be sure to sweetspot/tech as necessary.
Getting back onto the stage from the edge isn’t any different vs Falcon than any other character. Do some edge regrabs, shorten some phantasms, throw in double lasers sparingly. Yeah.


Oh yeah, I wanted to talk about beating Falcon’s aerials. Let’s see….

Uair- You should just laser it from the ground. Hard to beat from the front or when you’re above it. Shielding is a good option here. If Falcon is getting close enough to upair on the ground a lot though then you need to use a few more of those infinite bullets. =p

Nair- Laser it, Uptilt it, CC it, Nair it(aggressively), Bair it, I think I’ve Upsmashed it before lol.

Knee- Laser it, Uptilt it, roll(I don’t like shielding knees because the shieldstun let’s Falcon pressure Falco really hard), Bair it, Nair works I think, Fair can work if you just NEED to get something out there to stop the knee but it’s kind of a bad option lol.

Stomp(this should only be a problem as Falcon falls)- Bait it with an empty SH and then DJ Bair/Nair. If Falcon catches onto this then start doing quick DJ Bairs(preferred btw)/Nairs to worry him again. He could even airdodge here so be sure to space your aerials well so you can pressure him as soon as you both land.

Bair- I don’t see this move used much…..If Falcon has his back to Falco he usually rolls. I guess laser it if you somehow see it coming or just shield it.






The Marth Matchup

The Matchup and History: When I started playing Melee, Marth was considered one of the worst matchups in the game for Falco. M2K was on a tear and was just making every Falco on the planet look absolutely helpless with the combination of his consistent use of powershield -> grab, brutal 0-death combos, and merciless edgeguarding. It took awhile for Falco players to catch up and figure out how to play against this faster and less forgiving style of Marth play, but there are a number of Falcos out there today who are capable of beating M2K at the matchup. While it's still a tough matchup due to the nature of Marth's punish game, I think Falco has a slight edge on Marth at the higher levels of play, though it's pretty hard to call with the lack of high level Marth players out there now.
Bottom Line: A difficult matchup to master because of Marth's punish game, but ultimately, Falco's considerable edge in the neutral position keeps the matchup very close to even. I'd even go so far as to say it's a tiny advantage for Falco, but this is an uncommon opinion of the matchup.

The Neutral Position: This is where you have to win the matchup as Falco. Marth has to wait for mistakes and then punish super hard, so the key to winning the matchup is to control the neutral position and not make any/many mistakes. Marth has a considerable range advantage on Falco due to his sword, but you can completely negate this advantage with lasers. Marth has a number of knee-jerk reactions to predictible laser approaches (shield the laser -> fair your approach and counter are the most popular), so it's key that you make your approach timings unpredictible. I like to approach with a couple SHLs and then switch to either stationary SHLs or empty movement when I would be able to approach with an aerial or approaching SHL. Marth's typically think that you'll just keep coming with approaching SHLs or an aerial, so by throwing his timing off, you can bait his response and either keep laser pressure on or punish harder if you call counter and don't shoot a laser into it. While Marth's attacks come out pretty quickly, most are fairly laggy, with only dtilt being a notable exception. This means that when you bait him into taking action, you have a comfy window to punish. In essense, that's what the neutral position is all about vs. Marth; bait attacks from him and then punish. It's imperative to keep laser pressure on so that Marth can't get comfortable with his movement, as his fast dash, long grab range, and brutal uthrow combos make running powershield -> grab incredible vs. Falco. If you keep him on lockdown and manage the spacing, you can shut that option down and all that's left are his laggy attacks and floaty short hops which you can bait and punish.

When Marth is floating around with empty short hops, don't approach him until he attacks, just keep shooting. If he gets impatient and starts floating your way either retreat with a SHL or dash past the tipper range and CC -> dtilt/shine when he fairs. CCing is pretty good vs. Marth when you get real up close and personal with him, but it's generally super ineffective vs. any tippered move of his.

Challenging Marth from above is a bad idea, but if you can bait utilts without using your double jump, you can quickly double jump out of utilt range and then punish the utilt's lag. This dynamic makes being on the top platform vs. marth a good idea because you can use drop through the platform -> double jump to bait utilts and then find an opening to punish. Just watch out for full hop uairs/fairs. Marth isn't particularly quick about moving vertically, but if you're not careful, he can catch you with one of those.

Being below Marth is awesome. His floatiness and super laggy dair effectively neuter him when he's directly above his enemy. If you force Marth onto a platform with lasers, get below him and he becomes incredibly limited. In that platform situation, I suggest just staying beneath his platform and trying to pester him with uairs until he tries to move to either the top platform or back down to the stage, at which point, you should try to stay on top of him with either shine -> waveland on the platform or lasers/nair if he comes back down to the stage. When he's generally above you (without a platform), bair pretty much beats everything of his. It's hitbox sneaks under fair and forward B, it outranges the low hitbox of bair, and it's easy to space to horizonally outrange his dair with how much faster you move upwards with your jump than he falls down. Essentially, when you get below Marth, it's pretty important to capitolize on how well your vertical movement and aerials match up with his.

Shield Pressuring: Marth's combination of bad OoS options and a small shield make pressuring his shield easy and highly profitable. The list of viable options OoS for Marth:
Up B (6 frames)
Grab (7 frames)
Fair (8 frames)
Roll (4 frames)
First thing you'll notice is that dodge isn't listed here and that's cause Marth's dodge sucks, so if he tries to use it to break out of shield pressure, chances are that you'll hit him even if you're just spamming tech skill and hoping for the best. While dair (10 frames) and bair (11 frames) are sorta options too, they're both really underwhelming vs. Falco's shield pressure game, so I've left them out too. Ok, so what this boils down to is that while Marth has other options, he's really going to just try to grab you or roll most of the time. Shield grabbing gets destroyed by shine grab and fadeaway nair after your shines, and, to a lesser extent, double shine mixups, but when timed properly, will catch you out of a standard pillar. Since Marth is so dangerous from a grab at low-mid %s, I make preventing getting shield grabbed the #1 priority when I'm at those %s. I find shine grab the most overall reliable tool against marth, as he can basically only roll away (if he buffers spot dodge between your shine and grab, you still come out with a frame advantage which you can exploit with either another grab or shine). Fadeaway nairs are also great since they can shield stab or at least get his shield lower for future shield stabs, but if he jumps forward out of his shield with a fair, he can tipper fair you in the nair lag. His up B OoS is risky, but when you hit his shield high with an aerial or misspace a shine (so that it misses his shield), he can reverse up B you for kills at high %s or just to get you off of him at low and mid %s. If he fails to sweet spot though, you can CC and punish it. Also, if he gets predictible with it (read: if you're playing G$'s marth and are at >90%), you can just l-cancel your aerial into shield and then punish after he up Bs your shield.

Comboing: Marth has medium fall speed and is fairly light. The most similar character in terms of being comboed is probably Y. Link, so chances are that if you don't have Marth experience, you probably don't quite know how to combo him. Low % shines should be followed up with strong dairs into another shine. Once I start getting into the mid 30s to 50s, I transition into double jumping above Marth with an early dair that I then fast fall through him to weak hit the dair. This knocks him down much more slowly than a strong dair, which doesn't give him a chance to tech before you are able to utilt or shine (utilt is preferable since it doesn't knock him as high at those %s, which will allow you to rinse and repeat). When doing these high weak hit dairs, they will usually auto-cancel, so try to get a feel for when the move auto-cancels so that you don't try to l-cancel and end up shielding when you're auto-canceling. I typically try to end my extended combos on Marth by shine -> bairing/just bairing him off stage, but if the positioning doesn't lend itself to knocking him off stage with bair, I suggest uairing (if he's too high to dair) or dairing him and trying to tech chase with a sffled dair -> which ever aerial makes sense. Because of Marth's weight and fall speed, you usually don't have to be terrifically fast to tech chase him after a high dair.

I actually end up using short hop auto-cancel bair -> utilt as a combo starter a lot vs. Marth. It spaces really well vs. a lot of situations and the weak hit of the bair combos into the utlit quite well at the low %s, and the utilt tends to be easy to follow up. I usually find myself using this when Marth is attacking me from a platform, but I use it vs. DDing sometimes too when I think they'll expect a laser from me playing defensively.

Platforms are beautiful for your combos, any shine -> waveland at the early -> mid %s leads to a lot of damage from the generic shine -> dair stuff I described above. They also make tech chasing even easier by not giving him a lot in the way of room to tech roll, which lets you tech chase with fsmash or dsmash (if you're too much of a ***** to fsmash ). If you've placed Marth near a top platform mid combo, full hop fair will actually usually connect 2-3 times and set up a dash -> JC usmash, and while that's cool and I've been trying to find a way to fit that into flashy combos, a full hop uair will usually prove more effective as it can setup a dair.

When I uthrow a Marth at low-mid, I usually try to shine him if I'm confident in my spacing, but otherwise I stay under him with uairs, as they typically try to forward B or fair, both of which will usually hit you out of trying to shine him with shakey timing. I think it was Ryan-K who told me that if they miss DI on the uthrow at 0, you can full hop fair for a 4-5 hit fair combo , but I still haven't really tried this, as I just go for shine when they miss the DI, but I should check it out on FD, since with out platforms, a midair shine doesn't lead to much.

At higher %s, I find uthrow -> dair works way more than it should. You just sorta pick a direction and full hop fair that way and hope he doesn't DI the lasers the other direction, but as I said, this ends up working a lot more than it should, especially if you uthrow immediately after a shine-grab. Working from dairs at higher % is easy, as it usually leads to dair spike or a nair/bair to send them off stage, but always keep uairs in mind when you've knocked him high in the center of the stage, as you can frequently get kills off the top with uair faster than you can get kills off the side from the center with bair (especially since they typically DI up, expecting the bair).

Edgeguarding: Okay, so we'll start with the easy stuff... If you can ever get positioned under Marth while edge gaurding, exploit your bair for easy kills. As I described in my discussion of the neutral position, Marth's aerials match up poorly vs. your bair from below. Also watch for the Marth doing forward Bs high in the air. His forward B is way laggier than most people think at first, so most of the time a Marth does this high, you should be able to punish with a rising bair or dair.

When Marth players start to get good though, they learn to hold onto their forward B and not recover high vs. Falco. When you have hit Marth far enough away that his double jump will not sweetspot, I find lightshield edgeguarding to be highly effective. To perform the lightshield edgeguard, simply roll to the ledge with L or R and while you are in the middle of the roll, let go of L or R and start holding Z along with back to the ledge. Z is better than lightly holding L or R as you'll always have the minimal lightshield, which works perfectly with holding just straight back (no need to hold at any weird angles... straight back). Alrighty, so I'm gonna go through all of Marth's options after you lightshield:
1. Stay at stage height with recovery and instead of up Bing, airdodge onto stage/ledge.
2. After double jumping, before up Bing, fair or forward B you to put you on the ledge, then upB to ledge after you lose your invincibility frames
3. Up B to the stage
4. Up B to the ledge

1 and 2 effectively counter you doing nothing. When I anticipate either of these, I short hop out of my lightshield with a bair and then reset my lightshield positioning, as the bair typically forces them to do 3 or 4 on their next attempt. If I don't anticipate 1, I'll try to react with shine OoS. If I don't anticipate 2, I'll roll from the ledge and try to punish whatever Marth tries to do to get off of the ledge. 3 is my favorite, as Marth's up B has a load of lag which you can punish off the ledge. Most people are inclined to ledge hop in front of Marth and bair him back off the stage, and while there's nothing wrong with this, dairing instead of bairing is typically better. If Marth DIs in (most of the time), you just turn around and dair spike him:

You are Falco main number: